The "Debate" of Faith

For the sake of remembering...

***Emily*** said...
Hi Sunstar! I like your blog! I was reading your past posts and saw that you don't believe in God. I also saw what Bekah posted on her blog, and I feel like I need to tell you why I believe that there is a God, and that He loves us.In the beginning was the Word(Jesus), and the Word was with God, and the Word was(is)God. He was in the beginning with God. And all things were made by Him, and with out Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was(is)life, and the life was(is) the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. John 1:1-5I know that it is hard to grasp and understand that before anything happend God was there. I myself struggle to comprehend that and eterninty.God made us with the choices to believe and except Him, and to not believe and reject Him. When we chose to not believe in Him and reject Him, it breaks His heart. He came to the earth that He made to SAVE His creations not to condem them to death. He came so that we might live and have new life in Him. He doesn't want us to go to Hell, but He cannot be with sin. It is because we listened to the devil that we cannot be with Him.If you have any questions please stop by my blog and leave a comment.In the Word,Emily

October 7, 2009 1:23 PM
Sunstar said...
Bekah, you have a bright mind, and I can see why you believe in god. Before I say more, I have great news! I told my friend that I didn't believe in god, and she wasn't mad. I was hiding it for so many years and it's not as bad as I thought.About your comment: I thought it was well written, and well thought out. About your visions, I understand them. I used to have "visions" as well. Not long after, I had nightmares, and illusions. I saw what I wanted to see-you understand? I watched a scary movie, and BAM! I had an illusion! It was horrible, just a creature floating towards me, but I hid under my covers, and I learned about the illusion. I've had plenty, and I also have more proof. Me and my mom were kidding around, but it seemed so real. We looked at the sun and shut our eyes and said "Oh sun, if you are real, make the wind blow hard." and it did. Then I tried-more specific. "Dear sun, if you are real, let two birds fly by in ten seconds." And guess what happened? You see?Sometimes, we see what we WANT to see.I understand that god doesn't want to send us to hell, but think of it-if god has all of the power in the universe, couldn't he just make us NOT go to hell?Here's a REAL brain buster for you: If god is as "all powerful" as the bible says he is, can he make a rock that's too heavy for him to lift?Well, I just can't believe in books and illusions-and if you wonder "Well, how is the universe made? It HAD to be god." well, how did god get here? If you say he's always been here, couldn't the universe always been here? Maybe god made the universe amazing and full of strange things, or was it just the universe itself that did that?Maybe the universe was "always there"-or maybe "god" mad us. Do you understand? Humans don't always know our limits. If we can't explain something, we say god did it. Maybe we aren't as "dumb" back then as we say. Maybe things ARE accidents. I think that god and other things are invented, because we want to be here for a reason. We want something-or someone, to say that we made the mistakes for a reason-not to me. I say that it's OUR choice, I say that it's not "god's" choice at all.We underestimate ourselves to much, we need to understand that no one will be alike, and god couldn't have done that-he's not better than us-why would he? Why is god a HE anyway? Doesn't it seem strange? "God" is a he, and the people who lived back then who wrote the book, lived in an era where men were more important that women (to them at least).I don't dislike christians, but I don't praise something that I can't have proof for.

October 7, 2009 2:54 PM
Bekah said...
Hey Sunstar:That's good about your friend! I'm happy for you. :)Now...down to the serious stuff ^_^Okay. Illusions? Hannah said it disappeared but she still felt the angel's presence. Think of it as an illusion if you wish, but to me, it is something sacred.Do you think that the Bible is a book? Has any other "book" impacted the lives of SO many around the world? I promise you, this Bible is no book. There are truths in there that has turned my world upside down. There is no proof that the Bible is not a book, so I'm not going to try to prove to you that it's not. That would be stupid. It's just one of those facts, at least to me. It's like asking, "Why is the sky blue?" There's no answer to that, it just IS blue. (You probably don't think that that question is like that, but I do ^_^)Let me quote you: "well, how did god get here? If you say he's always been here, couldn't the universe always been here? Maybe god made the universe amazing and full of strange things, or was it just the universe itself that did that?"Sunstar, dear girl, how did God get here, you ask? Let me compare him to a circle. Does a circle have a beginning or an ending? No. If you ask a mathematician where's the circle's beginning and where's it ending, he's going to laugh. I know that's a stupid comparison, but I believe that that describes God. It's nonsensical to ask where he came from! He has no beginning, and has no ending. I don't fully understand that, as a strong believer, and I don't think you will either, but doesn't the Bible say that this world is but a reflection in a mirror? How can we possibly presume to know ANYTHING about God? Are we that arrogant?Okay, again quoting you: "I understand that god doesn't want to send us to hell, but think of it-if god has all of the power in the universe, couldn't he just make us NOT go to hell?"Say there is a criminal, who molested and abused and stole all his life. He finally gets caught, and all his former deeds are tallied up. The judge condemns him to a life-sentence of labor jail.Would you get all mad at the judge for doing that to the criminal? Sunstar, the criminal deserved it. The same is with any human. The only thing that defines someone who believes and who doesn't is that one accepted grace and the other didn't. They both sinned. But the one that didn't accept grace, and didn't strive to be like Jesus, is the one who is going to be punished. Do you expect God to merely let us walk away from sinning all our lives? Do you think he is going to REWARD us? Sin deserves punishment. It is only by the saving grace of God that ANYONE can reach heaven.You said: "If god is as "all powerful" as the bible says he is, can he make a rock that's too heavy for him to lift?" The answer is yes: he could create a massive rock and DELIBERATELY limit his power so he cannot levitate it. And also, the answer is no: he could create a voluminous rock but using the full extent of his power, it would automatically be within his power to lift.You said: "Humans don't always know our limits." We are imperfect, true. But to say that we "made up" God? How can anyone "make up" someone like God? Did we make up the sky? Did we make up science, or biology, or the earth, or the magnetic field, or the greenhouse effect?Again, I think that the question "Why is God a he?" is one of the those impossible questions like "why is grass green?" We don't know. It just IS! Does it really matter? If God is a she or a he...is that our debate?Sunstar, I respect you immensly, and look forward to your reply. :)Blessings, Bekah

October 8, 2009 5:03 PM
Sunstar said...
Exactly my point Bekah. We don't know, and some things don't matter. When you quoted what I said about god being here forever, you didn't quote the rest. I said that what if the universe is the one that has been here the whole time? You ignored that part, Bekah. About hell, think of it. Don't you think that prison is enough? God would be stubborn if he thought that prison wasn't as bad as eternal burning. If he is real, I don't want to be with him anyway! There are no answers in the true universe. I have a good theory: the people who made the bible were mentally ill. Couldn't that make sense? And you know that people can easily believe anything. Once again, you underestimated humans. We can make a big impact on earth-just one person, isn't that true? Well, I think that these people told us stories through the years about the "vision" that their old family saw, and it bottles up into a big, fat, believable lie. We always underestimate ourselves and the universe. We say that there HAS to be something that's better than us-there just has to! And about the earth being in a perfect place-think for a moment. The universe is never-ending. Don't you think that there had to be ONE perfect place? Or maybe this isn't perfect for aliens. I (like I said before) have hopes. And hopes are dreams. I hope I turn into an animal in another life when I die. And there is something you should know, that a lot of christains believe: In the true Greek bible, there is no hell. I promise you this. My brother takes Greek-his teacher is a paster (they call his church the anti-church because they don't believe in hell) and he studies the bible. There is no saying of hell, and I trust him.If I've learned one thing in my experience, what people say they know, can very easily be fake. Just because there is a book, and we DOUBT there is no way it could have that much impact on people, we believe it. Just because of its perfect grammer and what-not.(there Is a reason why the sky is blue-very science like-it's in my book-very advanced-hard to undrestand-LOL!)Well, comment back, and as you know I know, we believe things that can be fake. We see things we think we don't.Bye!~Sunstar

October 8, 2009 6:31 PM
Hannah said...
Sunstar,I haven't read all of your's and Bekah's comments, but please, hear me out.I know what it's like to doubt God's existence. I know what it's like to be afraid to believe. But honestly, I'm more afraid if I don't believe.How do we know whether to believe or not to? How do we know what is truth and what is lies?There is so much evidence that points to Christianity, and the Bible and God all being true, overwhelming evidence, but still, I doubt.However, I know, in my heart of hearts, in my deepest place, that I DO believe in God, and that I do believe, but sometimes, I'm afraid too. Because I know that if I believe in Him, and live for Him, then my life will change. And I don't always want that change (that's sin, kicking in).I don't know how to write something meaningful, and I don't know how to impact you, or to help you believe. But I do know this:God is here. And God made you. And He knows EVERYTHING about you.Right now, you don't believe. And, I'm not judging you, but honestly, believing in Him...it's lifechanging.I am going to DARE you to read the bible. Dig deeper. And I DARE you to pray. Even if you mock yourself and Him, and don't believe, or say you don't. I'm DARING you to LOOK deeper.I will be praying for you.Let God touch your heart.--Hannah

October 8, 2009 7:15 PM
Hannah said...
I was researching bible verses to give to you, but I found this on a wiki topic, and wanted to share it:Hi Brandon H. We should always use the God's word the Bible when we are spreading the Gospel, because it is the truth. If we try to use our own word to bring you to God it would do no good. Only God can bring you to Him. He tells us very clearly this is true in John 6:44:“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.”There are people who want something tangible to base their faith on, but God tells us He is a spirit in John 4:24:"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."Some people want a vision or a dream so that they know God is real. But, we must remember that Judas Iscariot walked with Christ, he saw Peter walk on water and had seen almost all of Christ's miracles, yet Judas still betrayed Jesus.When we rely on God's Word the Bible and compare the Bible in its entirety we can know what God is teaching us about Salvation. My advice is to avoid anyone who wants to tell you about God who does not rely on the Bible as their sole authority.taken from http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070511213257AAn53nE God LOVES you Sunstar. I know you must have heard that before, and I know you MUST be shaking your head or rolling your eyes or groaning...but it's TRUE. You were created in the image of HIM.I'm going to leave you with this verse, Psalm 139:13"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb."He IS there.

October 8, 2009 7:33 PM
Jake M. said...
Hey Sunstar,I read over you and Bekah's debate... And I was just wondering, how could earth be a perfect place with so much war and death? With all the evilness? I'm a Christian and I believe heaven is the place that is truly perfect. How, you might say, could there be a heaven? Well... Has anything written in the Bible ever been proven wrong? If I'm not mistaken, it has never been shown faulty. Also, there have been people who have died and miraculously become alive again and firmly say they were in heaven or hell in those minutes of death.Well, God has his own standards when it comes to sin. He's a righteous and holy God and when he sees us sin and going against his laws, it pains him immensely. Loving us so much and not wanting us to have to endure hell, he DIED for us. He gave his very own life, perfect and holy, blameless and innocent, for US so we could avoid hell and instead, be in heaven will him forever! We all have a choice either to live for him or against him. It's up to us to decide. Being a just god, He has a punishment for those who disobey him just like any court has a punishment for a criminal, but he's given us away out! He gave his son to free us of that charge! On the cross, he defeated sin and now he's provided us all the means necessary to not have to go to hell but instead, heaven. I know: hells a scary place and it makes us question why such a loving God would ever send a person there. But that's why he sent his son and that's why it's so important for everyone to know the truth so we can except that gift of Jesus he gave us and not have to endure hell instead.That's just my belief. I'm not judging you and I hope you don't take this comment like that. This is just why I believe in Jesus and I hope it helps with some of your questions. Jake

October 8, 2009 7:37 PM
Bekah said...
Sunstar-This has been a very interesting debate. :)"what if the universe is the one that has been here the whole time?" Okay, but where do you think God came from? Created by the universe? He's up there, Sunstar, I think we both know that. But our debate is whether or not he deserves to be worshipped, or whether all the things he has done are true, or whether he is allpowerful.all the miracles that I explained to you in my first comment...taking those in note, how can you think there is NOT a God?Why couldn't the universe just be here? Well think of an author and a book. Could you just say, "Oh, there's a book! It created itself!" No, that'd be ridiculous. There had to be someone who CREATED the book.No, prison isn't enough. God warned us about the consequences if we disobeyed him during our lifetime, and we have to take the consequences. That's what I believe.No hell? Throughout the Bible, hell is mentioned profusely. I have the Bible that is translated word-for-word, and believe me, there is a LOT of hell mentioned."Mentally ill"? Hmm...is there any way that you can prove that? And are you saying that ALL the people mentioned in the Bible are ALL mentally ill? That's a LOT of people. And if you think the people that wrote the Bible are mentally ill, then the people who followed them are mentally ill. And God told the people what to write, so are you presuming that GOD is mentally ill? Wow. That's a truckfull! Accusing thousands of people, and even God himself, of being "mentally ill"!"If I've learned one thing in my experience, what people say they know, can very easily be fake. Just because there is a book, and we DOUBT there is no way it could have that much impact on people, we believe it. Just because of its perfect grammer and what-not." Hm...yes, people can very easily lie. "Perfect grammar" huh. *laughs* yes, once I proof-read a few pages in the Bible, and its grammar COULD be improved upon. But it's grammar is not it's point, it it's message that matters, to me. Yes, the Bible IS hard to understand, isn't it? And believe. Like what the heck, these people are saying these things HAPPENED! Well they're mentally ill! :D But, the thing is, these things, like I said before, are still happening. Just read my first comment for proof of more miracles. I promise you I could come up with an abundant more of miracles to bore you with. :DHaha! There is a reason why the sky is blue! *smacks forehead* well somebody (meaning myself) is mentally ill! LOL jk :D"We see things we think we don't"? What does that mean?Are you hoping you're going to be good enough to go to heaven? And why some people are sent to hell? Please go to this website: http://www.wayofthemaster.com/goodperson.shtmlThanks!Blessings,BekahPS I hope you don't mind if I'm following you blog. :)

October 9, 2009 6:37 AM
Bekah said...
also, another GREAT site is: http://www.answersingenesis.org/get-answers#/topic/death-sufferingLove,BekahPS throughout this "debate" my respect for you and love of your blog has not wavered. Just letting ya know. Hope we can still be blogger friends. :)

October 9, 2009 7:03 AM
Sunstar said...
I read all of your comments, and first I want to say this: I'm fine with you following my blog, and I'm happy to be friends with you. I don't want to not be friends with someone JUST because they believe.Still in everyone's comments, there's something that everyone's telling me: God is real, he made you, and you're insulting him. I don't believe there is a god to insult! In case you forgot, I was a believer for most of my life.Another thing you said, was that you study the bible and it says hell TONS of times. I'm saying that the original Greek bible has no say of hell what-so-ever.Another thing you said, is that there had to be something to create the universe. Doesn't every baby have a mother and father? Well, god sure doesn't seem to have one. Maybe the universe is the same as we say god is. Maybe the universe-like "god"-was always there. Or maybe we should just leave this alone.Another thing that I've noticed, is all of you underestimate humans, animals, and the universe.Truly, you can believe what you want to, but it just doesn't fit. You don't know what we could and couldn't do. And yes, miracles happen. It doesn't have to be "god", does it? We have amazing abilities, and we don't need god to have made them. Think for a moment. God has all of these amazing powers-we have all of these amazing powers. We thing god gave us these powers-we DON'T think god had someone give him powers. We are TRULY underestimating ourselves when we say that.I read the bible-my mom read the bible-my brother read the bible-my dad read the bible. Did you know that the "snake" in the story of Adam and Eve, could have been misread? Many times, people describe people as animals, because of the way they act. Like, "That guys a pig, I tell you." that means that he eats a lot, or he's really nasty and has nothing to do in his spare time.God told us to wait till 2000 when the world would end. God tells us he is always with us. All we have are "visions" and wasted time. He has "killed" people. Many die for him, when "him" is nothing. God raped women. I don't believe god is real, and I don't believe that the bible is telling any truth. I don't care what you say, because you are all going in circles.Everything you say, is something that can be caused by your brain, or can be because the bible "told you the truth".I don't want anyone to hate me for what I say, but I'm not going to hide my truth. I don't deny god, but I don't have more than thoughts about his being real.To tell you the truth, the most peaceful person that was real that I've heard of, is Buddah. I don't praise him, but he's so peaceful. Did you know he used to be a prince?Thanks, and I love "debating" with you all! I'm not to sure I'd like to here more of this "debating" though, because it seems like everyone is repeating themselves. Like I said, a christain will say ANYTHING to "prove" themselves right-I used to. But don't take that the wrong way!~Sunstar

I have replied to Sunstar's last comment in a lengthy manner, but she has not moderated it yet, and I did not save it or anything, so I can't show you all.

Man, thanks Emily, Hannah, and Jake for chiming in. I really appreciate it. :)

In the process of this heavy "debate" of faith, I have (1 learned things about my faith and myself (2 grown in God and my faith. Even if this debate turns out badly, I am so glad I asked Sunstar the simple question, "Why do you believe?" because it has strengthened my faith like nothing else.

Who would have known I'd be talking about this stuff at the naive age of 12? I always thought sharing my faith would come later like when I am twenty. I always thought, Oh, I'll just put off asking myself why I REALLY believe until it's questioned, and I am SO glad now that Sunstar and I have gotten into this thing. *grins* this has been thought-provoking and very interesting to participate in.

Thanks to you all for reading it. :)